E61 – Editing White Rooms

Show Notes

This podcast episode, “Editing White Rooms,” features a discussion between co-hosts Miss Catherine MH and VE Griffith, as they explore the concept of “white rooms” in writing—scenes lacking descriptive setting. They each share their personal struggles with incorporating setting details, with Miss Katherine MH tending to over-describe and VE Griffith often under-describing. The hosts offer practical advice for writers and editors on how to identify and address white rooms, emphasizing the importance of sensory details and character interaction with the environment to create a more immersive experience for the reader. They also touch upon the balance between providing sufficient detail and maintaining narrative pace, and the differing challenges of describing indoor versus outdoor settings.

The Revision Wizards are at https://www.revisionwizards.com
V.E. Griffith’s website: https://www.vegriffith.com
Miss Catherine M.H.’s website: https://www.scribes-pen.com
Lon’s Twitter/X: @lonvarnadore1
Lon’s Instagram: @lon_scribbler

Transcript at: https://revisionwizards.com/?p=2646

Transcript

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Welcome to the Revision Wizards podcast. I’m Miss Catherine M.H. and I’m joined by my something or other kind of magic co-host V.E. Griffith. This is episode 61.

[V.E. Griffith]
Today we’re continuing editing by parts with part three. We’ll be talking about editing white rooms.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Ooh, white rooms. So a fun fact for you, I don’t write white rooms. I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever had to edit one in my own work.

[V.E. Griffith]
How do you manage that? Well, you’re really into setting, aren’t you?

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I am. I’m very big into setting. So I think the only time I edit a white room depends on if, if I’ve started, like, here’s where the setting is and then I have a ton of dialogue.

So I’ve got a group of people speaking and that draft, maybe I’m just trying to get all of the, you know, the whole dialogue out in that scene. Then I’ll go back and add a little bit more of the setting of like where people are sitting and things, but it’s never been like a full white room to me. I always immediately know what the place looks like in my head.

[V.E. Griffith]
I know what the place looks like in my head. My problem is that I don’t communicate that to the reader.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I’m fascinated to find out how you edit that. I know how I edit it for other people in books, but how do you edit it in your own work?

[V.E. Griffith]
I have to make a specific point to go back and look at what’s on the walls. What are the, what does the floor look like? What does the furniture look like if there is furniture or are we actually in a white room, which can happen?

The other thing that I try and pay attention to is character interaction with the room, not just with other characters. So character interaction with other characters is important, but do they sit down? Do they touch the furniture?

Do they look at the spines of the book and see what the titles are? What do the books look like? I’m big into rooms with books.

That’s a thing that I’ve been doing recently. Are the books arranged in any particular way? Are they arranged by size?

Are they arranged by color? Are they not visibly arranged, you know, by topic or something? I want to pay attention to each of those things.

What is the room? My favorite. What does the room smell like?

Is it old and dusty? Does there, can you smell curry? What do you smell?

What does it sound like? What are the outside sounds going to sound like? What’s coming into the room from the outside?

Do you hear traffic? Do you hear wailing and screaming? Do you hear something else?

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
That’s interesting. Yeah. Like I said, I don’t, I don’t have too much of that.

I really, that is the overrider in me. Um, I have to go back in and make sure I don’t have too much because I will explain a ton. So the white room, thankfully, doesn’t happen for me too often.

It’s a rarity that I go reading through my own work and I’m editing and I’m like, where are they?

[V.E. Griffith]
What you have is the cluttered room.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Yes. So when I’m editing it for other people, I do look for those things. I look to see, is this just dialogue?

And then I will look to see how do they interact with each other? What is the tone of the dialogue? Cause that’s going to dictate how their movement in this space is going to be.

If someone is super agitated and someone is trying to calm them down, it’s going to be very different from if someone’s super agitated and someone’s scared of it, that movement is going to be different in the room. They might be putting something in the way, like in between them versus if someone’s trying to approach. So I look at what kind of tone that dialogue is setting.

So I know how to, um, encourage movement in the scene. And then I will figure out like, what is going on around them? What is the actual setting that this scene is taking place?

So I’ll ask questions like that. I’ll sit there and be like, where, where are we? First off, do we have any of the five senses we can add in here?

Are they feeling, you know, the ground around them? Are they smelling something? What are they seeing?

What are they hearing? What are they smelling? Is that my last one?

What are they smelling? So I will ask those questions. And then it’s really about how is the character moving each one too.

So is one character interacting more with the environment around them or are they solely focused on the person next to them that they’re talking to? So that’s really going to determine how I help them edit. If this is really a very important conversation between the two of them, then I don’t want to fill in too much and slow down the pace of what’s happening.

So this way, you know, you’re just saying small little things. Maybe they’re sitting at the table suddenly and now bam, you have a table in this room. So they could scrape the chair back, put their elbow on the table while they’re talking to each other.

It’s just small little comments. So that the reader can still picture the room and what’s happening. Now, if this is a scene where you have to slow things down, that’s when I tell you to start adding more details around them.

What exactly are they doing now? How are they taking that pause? Are they taking that pause or are they moving around from one space to another?

So that’s kind of what I’m looking for when I’m editing someone else’s work. When I start seeing that white room syndrome.

[V.E. Griffith]
How do you deal with your overriding tendency?

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I will look at what’s important to that scene. So again, I’m going to really focus on the conversation that’s at hand. I guess I’ve had many conversations when they’re in their little house sitting at the table in that living room.

Now I described the living room the first time. So this way you definitely know what the living room looks like. I had to actually cut back on that.

I could tell you the pattern that was on the curtains that she bought. What kind of lace was laid out on the table. The square footage I used to have of the entire room itself, which I was like, that’s not necessary.

Paint on the walls and what it was made out of. So I have those kinds of things where I’m like, that’s not necessary for the reader to know. You don’t need to know it’s lime-based paint.

You don’t need to know it. It’s not going to be important. It’s lime-based white plaster paint on top of clay walls with wood.

You don’t need to know that. So I will go in and nitpick what details are important. The curtain color became important because once they’ve met the Diddikus, the curtains started changing colors.

I don’t know if you picked up on that, but they did. They went from a normal lace white to, he keeps commenting about how his house keeps filling with vibrant colors. Because this is a culture that has vibrant colors and they want him to wear purple pants and green shirts with orange vests.

And he’s like way too much color. But their house starts becoming colorful. So he notices that the carpet changes color.

And he’s like, when did they even get a new carpet? He’s like, when did this happen? I was at work for a day.

She works with me. Or then the curtains have changed color like six times. So it’s those little things where I’ll keep small details and just mention it as they’re having a conversation where his feet are like, that’s a plush carpet compared to what I’m used to.

And then we’ll notice it’s a different color. Move on. It’s just a way of breaking up the amount of dialogue, but still reminding you of where they’re at.

Or like the teapot whistles because the fire is on. And that’s in the living room because that’s, you know, Victorian setting is your kitchen and is your living room if you are middle and lower class. So it’s those little things where I can give a whole lot of detail and then I take out the unnecessary parts.

You don’t need to know when the floor was, you know, installed. You don’t need to know when the building was built or what kind of pipes were used. You don’t need to know any of that.

So it’s just the, what I think is the bare necessities. And then I hand it off to an editor who also tells me that I’m describing things too much. And then I have cut back some more.

So I will cut out as much as I think is unnecessary. And then my editor will come back and be like, this is amazing. And I’ve learned so much now cut it.

[V.E. Griffith]
That sounds like a problem that you would have. That makes sense to me.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
So how do you start going about your white room challenge? Do you notice you’re writing a white room or is that something you only notice coming back?

[V.E. Griffith]
When I’m first drafting, I notice that I am very dialogue heavy. I try and insert details to cue the reader to what’s going on in the room when they walk into the room. And what do they see?

And what does the floor look like? And what’s the table look like? And is it ornate or is it not?

Is there junk on the table? What sort of stuff is there?

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Kind of paints on the wall?

[V.E. Griffith]
Yeah, we don’t go that, that it’s lead based paint and that there it’s chipping down on the bottom and there are children at the corners eating the paint. No, I don’t do that. No, no, that’s not, that’s not how it works for me.

I try and leave myself breadcrumbs and clues about how I want the room to look. But when I go back and edit, I have to pay attention to that because I do very, very, very heavy dialogue centered manuscripts. And so I have to break the dialogue up with exposition.

And it’s hard for me because I know that when I read exposition, I tend to skim unless I work very diligently to not skim. If I’m listening to an audio book, my attention tends to wander during exposition. And so I project that tendency onto my reader.

And so I need to make sure that I don’t project that tendency onto my reader and give them the option of reading the description of the room and getting a better sense of the setting. If that’s what they, if that’s the way they want to read, they’re certainly entitled to that experience. And so when I go back and edit, sort of in first pass and when I’m looking at setting, that’s one of the things that I’m going to be looking at is overall setting, but also individual room setting.

Is the cave that we’re in still damp because caves form in the presence of water? Are the stalagmites and stalactites still dripping? That kind of thing.

So what does the cave smell like? Is it still damp? Is it moldy?

Is it musty? Is it ancient and there’s no water in it and all you smell is the dust? Is there bat poop everywhere?

Those kinds of questions are things that I have to answer for a setting like that. If I’m in a home, is it a cozy home? Is it a nice home?

Is it the sort of home that I grew up in that’s piled with crap everywhere? Give me a sense of what the home looks like. So those are the questions that I have to force myself to answer.

And I do it very briefly because, again, I project onto the reader that they’re going to skip it anyway.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Oh, here’s a question for you. Do you find, because I know my answer, that it’s easier to write when they’re outside versus when they’re indoors somewhere?

[V.E. Griffith]
No, I find indoors to be easier because I don’t believe in going outside. It’s against my religion. And so I have more experience with describing an indoor setting because I stay indoors most.

Now, it’s really, I do find that indoor settings are easier for me to write because there are fewer choices about the kinds of things that you’re going to see in a room. If you’re in a library, you’re going to see certain kinds of things. If you’re in a dining room, you’re going to see certain kinds of things.

If you’re in a living room, you’re going to see certain kinds of things. If you’re out in nature, what kinds of trees are there? Are they leafy trees?

Are they needle trees? Are they smelly trees? Do they have sap coming out of the bark?

Do they have bark? Has someone graphitized the trees? Are there animals in the trees?

What animals are there? Can you see squirrels? Can you see birds?

Can you see other kinds of critters? What about the insects that live in the environment? Those are the kinds of things that I have trouble getting into.

And in some ways, all of those details are just too much for me. But to answer your question, I find writing indoors much, much easier.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I think for me, because why are we ever the same, outdoors, I edit less. And I think that’s because I add less. So I’ll add, oh, they’ve passed this or the swirling smog around them.

So I don’t add as much detail when I’m outdoors, because I’m seeing it as they’re walking, passing by quickly. So I write it less, which means I have to edit it less. And my editor tends to be like, see, this part was great.

And then when I’m indoors, because I believe that being indoors, there’s so much you can go into. But I also don’t know if that comes from, you know, the difference in I am a woman, and I like to look at all the details indoors from things versus like Trevor, who’s not as detail oriented as I am when I’m like, no, this pillow has to be on this side of the couch, because it matches this throw pillow on the other side of the couch. So it contrasts.

And he’s like, it’s a throw pillow and chucks it across the other to the other side of the couch. So I wonder if that hinders me in a way that I’m, you know, that stereotypical woman who pays attention to the indoors of everything and wants to know what kind of paint is on the walls.

[V.E. Griffith]
I find that in my day to day life, I am less observant than other people. And in some ways, that’s reflected in my writing and my my tendency to underwrite description. It’s simply because I look at those things less.

I am less concerned about the shade of white. I am less concerned about the color of the couch. What I care about on a couch is can I sleep on it?

Is it comfortable to take a nap on? That’s the quality that I care about. I don’t care if it’s vomit green or if it’s beautiful royal blue.

It doesn’t make any difference to me. I don’t get into matchy matchy. I don’t care.

In some ways, those details kind of fly right over my head. And that’s reflected in my writing, too.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
So how do you help someone who you are editing with their white rooms?

[V.E. Griffith]
This sort of goes by feel. I don’t have a checklist, but I do have a sense that there’s not enough description in this room. Where are we?

I’m looking around and I don’t see anything. So if that’s the case, then I’m going to suggest to the to the writer that they add some description. Not necessarily that they have to describe every piece of the room, but I need something that’s going to give me a sense of the room.

Is it a brown room with 1970s wood paneling and harvest gold carpet? That kind of thing. Just to give me an idea of where we are.

I don’t need necessarily all five senses every single time, but I need something to give me set.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
That makes sense. I never thought about it as when you’re reading something and you don’t know what the area looks like. You all see it, but I’ve never pictured myself like looking around and just seeing two people talking or two heads because there isn’t any like.

And then you’re like, well, what is actually happening? So that’s a good way of looking at it. Like if you are confused, then there’s something wrong.

[V.E. Griffith]
Yeah. And, and in some ways that’s what we have editors and beta readers for, because as a writer, I’m too close to the scene. I know what the scene looks like in my head.

And sometimes I do a poor job of conveying that to the reader. And so I need a reader’s point of view that tells me that I have done that.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
That makes sense. Now, do you know why it’s called a white room?

[V.E. Griffith]
My thought is that it’s sort of the default that that’s what people think of when you walk into a room. Most rooms are white. They have white walls.

It’s kind of like, if you don’t describe an ethnically diverse character, the stereotypical reader is going to think of a white person. It’s just a stereotype. Most rooms are not black.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
That makes sense. I just don’t, like, maybe, maybe it could have been a green room. I’m going to, I’m going to pit a pension to get this changed to a green room.

So like you can then put all of your CGI right inside of it, which is what you should be doing.

[V.E. Griffith]
But we don’t record video.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
No, I meant like white room, like instead of it being called the white room syndrome, we’re going to, we’re going to call it the green room.

[V.E. Griffith]
We’re going to call it the green room. Okay.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I’m going to, I’m going to go pension for that. They probably won’t do anything, but they’d make me happy.

[V.E. Griffith]
Well, did we miss anything?

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I don’t think so.

[V.E. Griffith]
Okay. Then I guess that about covers it for today and we will see everybody in two weeks.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Stay magical.

[V.E. Griffith]
Bye.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I can’t cut it. Welcome to the revision wizards podcast. I am Miss Catherine M.H. and I’m joined by my magic something or other cohost VE Griffith. This is episode 61.

[V.E. Griffith]
Today we’re continuing editing with, by part of the, let’s try it. Have you any wool? Yes, sir.

Yes, sir. Three bags full. Okay.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Speaking of sheep, have you pet one in Australia yet?

[V.E. Griffith]
Yes.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Are they different?

[V.E. Griffith]
Yes, they’re upside down.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Makes sense.

[V.E. Griffith]
My son asked if everybody was upside down. I said, yes, we walk on our hands and we eat backwards too. We shove our food the wrong way.