E43 – Betas And Critique Groups

Show Notes

In this episode, we discuss etiquette and expectations for getting beta readers and participating in critique groups.

The Revision Wizards are at https://www.revisionwizards.com
V.E. Griffith’s website: https://www.vegriffith.com
Miss Catherine M.H.’s website: https://www.scribes-pen.com

Transcript at: https://revisionwizards.com/?p=2431

Transcript

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Welcome to the Revision Wizards podcast. I’m V.E. Griffith, and I’m joined by my djinn co-host, Ms. Catherine M.H. This is episode 43, and we’re talking about the differences between betas and critique groups. We’ll also mention some critique tips that you’ll want to follow with them. First off, I guess we should probably go over the difference between a beta and a critique group.

[V.E. Griffith]
That sounds like a good idea.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
All righties. So, betas. These are people who will go over your book and read it from a reader’s point of view.

Critique groups are usually groups that you would go to to get feedback from a writing point of view on your work. So, what do you think is the biggest difference about dealing with these two different groups?

[V.E. Griffith]
The biggest difference for me is their expectations. A work is a work in progress. A critique group, particularly if you use a website-based critique group system like Critique Circle, which is a very popular and very busy one, so there’s plenty of people there to critique your work.

Those kinds of folks understand that you’re dealing with just a portion of your work or just a chapter at a time, a few thousand words at most. A beta reader is going to expect you to have a completed manuscript. They understand that it may still have some rough edges, and that’s part of what their job is to find for you and to make sure that the story works overall, but they’re not going to be reading it chapter by chapter by chapter as you dole it out to them over the course of, say, a year.

That’s just not how beta readers work.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
That’s very true. That’s how an alpha reader can work, but not a beta. So, one of the other big differences is that betas are getting a book that is closer to being finished, usually.

A critique group can get any version of your draft that you are working on, so your betas are looking at something that’s much closer to being published than your critique group. You could come in with, this is my draft zero, guys. Hit me with everything you’ve got, or this is the draft that’s about to go out to my betas.

Help me make sure it’s all polished enough. So, I think those are also a really big difference between the two. How many betas should you have?

[V.E. Griffith]
The answer is the ever popular, it depends.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
It does.

[V.E. Griffith]
That’s a trick question. It does. Yes, it is.

It is a trick question. It depends on things like, for example, are you able to pay your beta readers? You should always pay your beta readers unless you’re trading with them in kind, or unless they volunteer to do it for free, but it is common to pay betas.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
It is. I’ve never heard that before.

[V.E. Griffith]
I have. Yes, I can.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I was always told you shouldn’t be paying betas.

[V.E. Griffith]
The thing is that reading a book and giving it a good criticism are time investments, and especially if you’re doing this commercially, people deserve to be paid for their time investment. It’s not as big an investment as, say, a line edit, but it is something that should be compensated for somehow.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
I think that is very dependent on where you are getting your betas. If you are getting your betas through a program, I think you pay for them. Most of the time your betas are free.

You’re finding them from an internet post, like a social media post. Hey, I’m looking for betas. If you would like to hit me up, things like that.

I think it really just depends on where you’re getting your betas from. I got all my betas from, hey, I need betas. Anybody want to read?

[V.E. Griffith]
Yeah, it depends on the source and on the level of social interaction and friendship that you have with somebody. A critique group, on the other hand, is going to expect that you read their stuff too. It’s not a one-way street.

Within the dynamic of the group, there is that expectation. Some of the website-based ones use some kind of a point system to enforce that etiquette. For example, you have to do a certain number of critiques before you’re allowed to post a chapter of your own to critique.

They have to be a certain length, and the critiques have to be of a certain quality, so that you’re not just going, oh, this was nice and getting your point and going away. They want you to actually read and participate. That is, of course, good etiquette for any group that you’re in.

Read and participate, for God’s sake.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
There is a thing with betas as well. Like I said, I know a lot of people who do these social media posts. Hey, we’re looking for beta readers, or they’re going to certain sites that they’re looking for things.

You’re going to get duds. You’re going to get people who are not going to read through the book. They say they will.

They’re not going to. The average that you’ll probably get when doing it is five to seven betas who will fully read through the book. You might put out a post and get 20 people who are like, yeah, sure.

You might think having 20 people is a good idea. It might not be. With your betas, don’t be afraid to be picky about it.

Find out what they read. I’ve had three people who did not read steampunk who have read my steampunk novel. They did not understand some of the steampunk tropes.

I now have three people who love steampunk, and I’ve been getting a few messages, which makes my day, about like, oh my God, totally, totally want to wear this outfit. Or just like the random, I really want to build this machine and see it in person. Things like that.

When you have your betas, try to get them within the genre that you are writing in, or those who will definitely read in that. Maybe they don’t mind and have like, I’m a jumper. I don’t have one set solid genre that I’ll read in, so I’m a person who wouldn’t mind reading whatever else you’re handing off to me.

But make sure that with your betas, you’re trying to get some people who are pretty strict into that genre, so you are getting feedback for your main, let me put that out there, your main genre. Not all the extra little subcategories, your main one.

[V.E. Griffith]
You can be less careful about that with critique groups sometimes, depending on the level of the work that you’re giving them. I would caution against giving them a draft zero. I would not give them anything that I haven’t revised at least once, simply because of the way I write.

And the fact that some of my characters sometimes tend to be, shall we say, rough around the edges and need some smoothing out so they’re not quite so sexist and racist. Because sometimes those elements are necessary in a character, but you don’t want to overdo them, and you don’t want to turn your readers off. So you want to be careful about those kinds of things, making sure that your characters are, they don’t have to be perfect by any stretch.

That’s of course what this process is about, making your stuff better. But you do want to make sure that it’s not absolute garbage, because that will waste everybody’s time. If you can do better, do better first.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
For my critique group that I’m part of right now, we have five members, and our limit for words is 2,500. And that’s, occasionally it’s like, oh, you’re over by like an extra hundred, that’s fine. Like, cool, we got the rest of your chapter.

No sense in cutting off the hundred words and being like, here’s the hundred next time. So our limit tries to be about 2,500 words. We have two weeks in between our meetings.

So we meet on a Friday, we go over the work, we meet in a Zoom call, and each person gets about 20 minutes of, hey, we’re answering questions, we’re seeing, we’re going over the chapter, and then you’re off for two weeks. In the middle of those two weeks, you post your next chapter. So this way, it gives everybody a full week to try to read your chapter.

We need to get back on that, because we’re all pretty bad. I’m also pretty bad at that one. We’re like, posting it on Wednesday, and everybody reads it on like, Friday, right before we meet.

So that’s been good. The thing is, is you can’t control all the time what kind of genres you’re reading in critique groups. So you could be getting information back from people who don’t read your genre, or people who don’t understand it, or you’re someone who does not understand their genre.

I’ve had that happen, where I’m quite lost on one of my people’s work, but they’re also starting on book two. So I’m coming in at this at book two, which has helped a bit, because I’ve been able to point out some things where I’m like, hey, is this consistent to book one, since I have not read it. So I’m one of those people who can then point out those little things.

But it’s going to be interesting for you to have to put aside, well, hey, maybe I don’t want to read this person’s work right now. Too bad, they’ve read yours and made comments. That is part of that etiquette.

If you are there in that group, you follow the rules of the group. Everybody participates. You want your work done, you will also complete other people’s work.

[V.E. Griffith]
The last time I was in a critique group, we did face-to-face meetings. This was back before the rise of the internet. And so we were not emailing stuff or posting our stuff on a webpage.

We were printing out eight copies and stapling them together and giving them to people. So it has been a while since I’ve done this. But yeah, you did run into the woman who was writing the science fiction with furry animals, and the woman who was writing the chick lit, who absolutely hated anything that talked that wasn’t human.

So, you know, just pay attention to the group dynamics, especially when you’re joining to make sure that it’s going to be a good fit. And if it’s not a good fit for you, don’t spend a lot of time reading stuff that you hate or that’s not helpful to you. And if the comments are not helpful to you, again, consider whether it’s worth your time.

You want something that you participate in, that you enjoy participating in. It should not be painful and hateful and hurtful. So make sure that the feedback you’re getting is good and helpful.

Make sure that the feedback that you’re giving is kind and helpful. Because just like you, the people that you’re working with have put a lot of time and effort into their writing, and they deserve good feedback just like you do. It hurts when you get bad feedback.

It hurts them when they get bad feedback. Don’t be that person.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Definitely. It’s important. And then with your critique groups, there is usually a here’s our code of conduct.

So make sure you read that over. That’s important. In my group, we have a color code system.

We have green for it is all clear. You may rip my work apart. I am here to get the most feedback that I can out of this.

This is like you go, you go ham on it. I don’t care if every word has a red underline. Give me your feedback.

We have a yellow, which is I’m still a little bit connected to this story. Maybe this is my draft like one right now and I’m looking for some feedback. Be gentle.

Red is please dear God be gentle. This is the first time I’m handing this to somebody. I’m still nervous about this.

So we have those color codes so we can you know, see when we open the work because we do all of ours on Google Docs. It’s easiest to share it with everybody. So we’ll have that system there.

And then we have something where it’s we’re telling people what we’re looking for. I’m giving a small little summary of this section belongs to this book or this piece of work. I am really trying to focus on my character growth in the story.

They’ve started out like this in my book. This is one of those chapters where they’re supposed to like change. Do you see this change happening?

So we can narrow down a little bit in critique groups of what am I looking for? This is what feedback I need to receive from you guys. Can you help me with that?

And if they are not helping you with that or not listening to what you are asking them to focus on, that’s a sign that you should leave the group. That is also one of those etiquettes. You back out nicely because you don’t want to burn bridges.

And you’re like, hey, this isn’t working for me. Maybe it’s just my work is, you know, it’s not as fast pace as I need it to be for what I’m working on. Because that is something that happens with critique groups is you could be meeting less often than you are writing.

So your progress might be slowed down with critique groups, depending on what you write.

[V.E. Griffith]
Yep. It’s important to think those things through and make sure that the group is going to meet your needs. And evaluate on a continuing basis if the group is continuing to meet your need.

You don’t want something that used to be great, now is awful, because again, your time is valuable. Your energy is valuable. It’s okay to continue to maintain those friendly relationships that you’ve built over however long you’ve been in the group, but that doesn’t mean you necessarily need to be part of the critique group.

You can have social interaction or authorly interaction with others with those same people, just not in the context of the group. So leave that open for yourself.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Then getting back to your beta readers, because you know, they’re important people too. You could ask your beta readers to look for certain things. That is okay.

You can sit there and be like, hey, I like to give an outline of what my book is not like an outline. I give them a sheet where I’m like, this is what my book is about, my blurb. Then I go into what draft number I’m on.

So they know how polished this book is. Then I tell them, these are the big things I’m hoping that you will look for. So with my recent group, I was like, hey, does this follow the steampunk tropes with all of the cuts that I’ve made to my book?

Does the beginning of my book line up, or were you confused about certain sections? Because I cut 14 chapters out. So those are things that I have my betas looking for, for the book.

So while they’re reading, they’ve got that little bit in mind, and then they can just read the book. I’m not asking them to go through a whole bunch of lists of things. That’s not something that I’m doing.

With your betas, don’t be afraid to give them a list of no more than three. That is the etiquette tip here, because you start piling things on, they’re not going to read it, and their job is to just read the book. So it’s one of those, here are my top three things.

If you could keep an eye out for those, cool. Maybe you’re really big on symbolism, and you’re like, did you see symbolism at all in the book? Don’t tell them what kind of symbolism you’re looking for.

It’s very vague questions. So this way, they can just read the book and then be able to give you your feedback.

[V.E. Griffith]
You do want to make sure that you don’t just hand them the book as well and say, tell me what you think. Be specific. Ask specific questions.

If you want different beta readers to look for different things, that’s okay. You can prepare a brief for each of them individually based on their strengths and weaknesses, and what genres they read, and what you want from them. And you find those things out by discussing with them before you go into detail with them.

Just make sure that you give your beta readers a brief so that they know what you’re asking for, not just, is this good? Because that way, you’re going to get better feedback if they know exactly what you want.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Ready for the throwback VE?

[V.E. Griffith]
Sure.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
All right. We have something on our wonderful website that you can use with your beta readers. We have what is called a rubric.

[V.E. Griffith]
Yes.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
And you could give those to your beta readers because that is an actual good thing. If you are one of those people who would like a little bit more information, give them the rubric and be like, when you are done with the book, fill out my rubric. So this way I can get a grade.

That’s in quotes. But I can get a better grade and understanding of what you got from the book.

[V.E. Griffith]
The neat thing about the three-story method rubric is that it gives specific instructions for each item on the rubric. So your reader has a chance to see what is a good sentence that is not passive. What is a sentence that is passive?

What does your setting look like? What does that mean? So they can give you specific feedback and there is room in there for notes.

So it’s not just circle, which one is best? One to five. It’s not like that.

They can type in specific notes that are tailored to you and you can ask them, in particular, focus on these three sections of the rubric, not so much on those others. But here’s the whole rubric in case you want to use it. I think it’s an excellent tool to help a beta reader or any reader take a look in a more objective way at your work.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Yeah, it definitely does help. I’ve used it with betas before and I plan on handing it off to my other betas before we do our meeting. So I do give them my work.

I give them that little bit of, this is what I’m looking for you to focus. And then before I meet with them, I hand them the rubric, go grade me, and then we will chat about it in our video call. Because I set up a video call or in this case, I actually, I can meet with them in person for two of them.

So I’ll be meeting with them and then we’ll just sit and we’ll talk about my book, which is also a lot of fun because we like to word vomit about our own books. But it’ll be cool to get the feedback. And then we can also look at the rubric and I can narrow down and ask more specific questions about, oh, well, what did you mean by this?

Did you like the theme that was going on? No, you didn’t even see one. Okay, what would you have thought the theme would have been from reading this?

So then that helps me ask better questions to them.

[V.E. Griffith]
All right. That sounds good to me.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Yeah, I think that’s about it.

[V.E. Griffith]
Okay.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Be kind. Do your share of the work.

[V.E. Griffith]
Be specific about what you want. Yeah.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Yeah. I think those are the top editing tips. If someone’s work is a real garbage, find something good in there that you like to give compliments because the last thing anybody wants is to read through, no, no, no, no, you suck, you suck.

This is horrible. No, no. So you want something in there occasionally to be like, this sentence made me laugh really hard because those little things you’re like, oh, okay, I got something good.

All right. Okay. Yeah.

I could change that a little bit, but you got that little bit of good feedback is always important to also give to people when you are critiquing them or being a baiter for them.

[V.E. Griffith]
Alrighty. Well, I think that about covers it for now.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
All righties. Everybody stay magical.

[V.E. Griffith]
Bye.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode. You can find every episode on your favorite podcast player and on YouTube. For transcripts, please visit our website at revisionwizards.com.

They go live the same day as our episodes.

[V.E. Griffith]
If you’d like to reach out to us separately, you can find me at vegriffith.com and Ms. Catherine at scribes-pen.com.

[Miss Catherine M.H.]
Stay magical.